A little more information

The two main activities in my life: Helping the hungry in the late hours of the night and helping guitar players sound better one amp at a time.

I always try to remember that in order to do good one has to take action and actually do something.

I was born and raised in Los Angeles. I have watched the city and Southern California change for well over half a century.

I can be found on facebook at www.facebook.com/mylesr or on twitter at www.twitter.com/myles111us or on my own Guitar Amplifier Blueprinting website at www.mylesrose.com

Los Angeles Architectural History

Los Angeles Architectural History
1935 Art Deco at some of its finest: No. 168 - Griffith Observatory- (click on the photo for information)

Wednesday, June 10, 2015

FrogLube - does it just work?

Many folks reading this are aware of the testing I have done on vacuum tubes and the claims of cryogenic testing.  I have published reports on many things, based on scientific testing using scientific equipment based on my decades of QA / QC experience and held to ISO 9000 standards. which means the tests are documented and repeatable.

Click on "read more" to continue

I am an avid firearms enthusiast.  After hearing and reading the claims of this product I decided to look into this myself.  I have used this product for almost two years.  I have tested FrogLube against conventional products in actual use and in the lab.  Is this a now a matter of cryro tube mumbo-jumbo, I asked myself.

FrogLube.  Disabled Vet company.  Make by Navy Seals.  Well, as some of you know, I am also a disabled vet.  I have known a few Navy Seals and some have seen the photos of my past.  I guess Navy Seals can become lubrication chemists like anybody else but rather than let "American Sniper" influence things with cool references and buzz words I will just continue my quest for answers.

There has been a lot of FrogLube testing on the Internet.  Here are a few examples.

This fellow tested FrogLube against WD40.  Cooking oil would have fared as well as the FrogLube and WD40 is a water displacement not a rust preventative OR a lubricant.  There are tons of these sorts of tests on the net.  

Folks that have a lot of time on their hands to document how things rust.  

Well, I don't leave my guns outside.  I also clean and oil them after every use.  I found that FrogLube does clean things very well and will keep things from rusting as will most any oil, especially if you lube your firearms on a regular basis and don't leave them outside for weeks on end.

Side note ... WD40 is a water displacement, not a lubricant.  In a marine environment it actually promotes corrosion.

So .... I called FrogLube directly with a few questions.  I was asked to email my questions to them directly.  I did that on June 5.  I also wrote them from two areas on their website.  I also wrote them on their Facebook page.   

I can't say much about their customer service other than it needs improvement.  I finally got an email response today, after calling them again directly today after no reply.  I talked to a nice fellow named Michael each time I called.  Today, after an email from their tech folks, an email that skirted the questions, I asked to talk to somebody in their tech department directly.  Michael informed me that he was the only one there and nobody was available.  I asked myself, are these folks just grabbing some old Crisco and adding a bit of green color?  It seems to meet all their claims and black powder shooters have been using the stuff for decades.  Another version of cryogenic treating of objects?

Some of the dialogue from the past on my process of trying to get answers from the FrogLube folks:

I wrote earlier today, and also called (and was asked to write as the person who answered the phone had no technical expertise, told me that, asked me to write). I wrote your tech folks from this website and also sent a normal email as per your request.

Basic question .... You talk a lot about cleaning, rust prevention, corrosion, but there is little talk about lubrication. How does your coefficient of friction compare to products like Rem-Oil, Wilson Combat Ultimate Lube, M-Pro7?

Thank you.

Myles Rose
June 5 at 4:05pm

One more email.

I called you folks and was asked to send my questions in an email.

I was trained as an aviation metalsmith decades ago and have my A&P license. I have watched oils and lubricants change over the years.

I shoot extensively. I have used your products and am generally satisfied but have a few questions.

1. What is the lubrication component in Froglube? Is it an actual lubricant or is it that there is a lubrication side effect of the formula? 

Corn and vegetable based oils break down under pressure and friction. Looking at some of the wear patterns on some of my firearms makes me wonder about the lubricating properties of Froglube. Perhaps I'd have these same wear patterns using other products, it could just be time in use. So, my question ...

2. Based on the above and tests of friction in a lab environment how do you folks test and compare your coefficient of friction with products such as MPro-7 or other common products on the market? Do you have any hard data or is your answer based on your "feeling" or observations? 

3. Have you tested and compared your product against mineral oils and synthetic oils?

4. Do you have any thoughts on Stainless vs blued steel using your product?

I have followed application instructions to the letter. I have been using your product on new and on worn arms. 

Thank you for your time. I look forward to your reply. Hopefully it will not be a press release, somebodies testimonial (opinion), and will be actual data. A lubrication company does have gear to measure coefficient of friction.

Basic question .... You talk a lot about cleaning, rust prevention, corrosion, but there is little talk about lubrication. How does your coefficient of friction compare to products like Rem-Oil, Wilson Combat Ultimate Lube, M-Pro7?
June 5 at 4:09pm · 

Today I received the email below.  I have altered the font to bold on some of the issues that I found a bit disconcerting.  


Thanks for your inquiry. 

Answers to your questions in order:

1. FrogLube products utilize  'natural formulations' in our engineering process. The only difference between our formulas and petroleum - based products, such as MPRO 7, is the absence of petroleum as a basis. As far as ingredients, we are unable to reveal the ingredients due to the proprietary nature of the formulations. As far as we can determine, there are no others on the market that have been able to duplicate our degreasing solvent/lubricant system and in order to maintain our industry edge, we must keep those secret. Thanks for your understanding. 

As far as 'wear patterns', you will likely see wear in any firearm moving part. Our system both removes surface fouling and absorbs into metal. Both are designed to reduce the incidence of wear and that is what we have observed in literally 100,000 rds of shooting. You should expect at least a 30-40% reduction in wear over the course of time.  

Based on what?  I have seen wear that is more extensive during friction coefficient testing of stainless steels, 
17-4PH steel, carbon steels, 2024 and 7075 aluminium alloys than I have found using some of the other products I mentioned to you folks.  As I mentioned to Michael earlier today (6/10/15), I am always open to talking to somebody from your company and would be happy to update this post with your commentary and feedback as all my posts are ongoing pieces.  

2. We do have hard data which would require both a reason and the signing of a NDA for revealing the information. We do not do lab comparisons with other products as a rule; however, we do recommend functional testing such as round counts between failures, corrosion prevention and accuracy deviation. We suggest that you will discover substantive improvements in these types of empirical tests between your own firearms.  

I found the comment above about not comparing with other products a comment that spoke volumes to me. 
Your website has countless statements and references on how your products work better than others. Based on what? 

3. Again, we are not a testing company and we believe we have catapulted natural lubrication and cleaning solvents into the forefront of the firearms industry. This industry leading posture keeps us in constant product development and our natural formulas are always being tested on the range and in firearms. Trying to compare our products to our competitors would be like comparing apples to oranges since there is too much of a difference between us to be of much use. 

Again, based on what?  You already stated that you do not compare your product to other products in the firearms industry.  You believe?  What's with all that other double speak?  Apples and oranges?  Are you saying synthetic versus petroleum based products?  Hmmm.  Probably not.  Those were around long before you folks.  You can eat it?  Probably not that as you can eat Crisco.  Maybe the color of green you use?  I may have found the magic after all, or your point?

4.  Our solvents clean ANY metal. Our lubricants work on all metals, but are influenced by the density of the metal (the more dense the metal, the less our lubricant absorbs) and/or the coating such as bluing. We have not seen any problems on ANY coating to date. Our data goes back to over 6 years of use across the industry. If a coating is a bad coating, no product can save it. If it's a good coating, no amount of FrogLube can harm it. 

Any solvents clean any metal.  All lubricants share the same aspects of density to a greater or lesser extent.  In fact, any metal that is heated prior to application will exhibit the same qualities and actions as your product.  

As far as a greater or lesser extent, inexpensive Rem-Oil absorption is greater than that of FrogLube and your paste formulation fell to the back of the list when it came to comparing with some other products in this aspect.

Lubrication qualities of your grease weight stuff?  Try comparing to Mobil 1 synthetic grease, the red grease that sells for a fraction of the cost of your product at any auto parts store.  Feel free to use it to clean .... after you used FrogLube.  You may find it a bit of a surprise.  Lithium based and aluminium based greases also have lubrication qualities that you may want to look into .... or comment on?

I should base part of my decision that your product is mild enough not to harm a bad coating on a firearm?  Side note ... I do not buy bad firearms or cheap firearms.  

Hope this helps,

Tech Support

As I informed Michael today, I would be very happy to talk about these points and would be thrilled to be enlightened if I have missed something.  All I ask is a lack of personal opinion, double speak and marketing dialogue.  I ask for actual data and straight answers.  One should not have to sign an NDA to answer the question of which has a lower coefficient of friction, Frog Lube or product X (if product X is a well known product from a company in the industry, especially a company who has been around longer than you folks have been around.

I will say that FrogLube is the best barrel cleaner and lube I have used.  I use it extensively in my shotguns that get a lot of use, more than once every week, for trap and sporting clays.  I use a case of shells per week on average, that's about 1,000 rounds per month.  There is less streaking from plastic wads, cleanup is easier, and my chokes stay much cleaner and are easier to clean than I have found using any other product.  That being said, if we can get some of my friction and wear questions addressed I'd be happy.  

At this point I think of you as the folks in the music industry that feel that they invented something new ... a solid state replacement for a vacuum tube that plugs into the slot for the tube.  In the past they were known as FETrons but that was before many of the folks making the claim were around to have seen them in use.  Just like vegetable oil based products, this stuff has been around a long time. Green Crisco?  Well, the white stuff is still used by a lot of black powder shooters.   

Now, if you want to start by answering my initial questions, directly and to the point, maybe I can help.  I have a lot of experience in testing, metallurgy, and ISO 9000 QA and QC.

I am the first to stand up and support a veteran based business or to support veterans, disabled veterans, and work with Union Rescue Mission, in Los Angeles California www.urm.org. the largest homeless mission in the United States, to help homeless veterans.  Jumping on the "vet bandwagon" does not impress me much.  There are millions of us.  Jumping on the Navy Seal bandwagon raised a little bit of a red flag for me.  I knew and worked with Navy Seals and one quality they seemed to all have was that they did not talk much about being a Seal.  I guess things are different these days with the books and films about Seals but the Seals I worked with were cut from a different cloth.  That has little to do with my questions and concerns, just a personal statement.

A bit more on FrogLube from another source

Myles S. Rose

Side note:  A few days later I tested Slip 2000.  I found it had the lowest co-efficient of friction of anything I have tested (their "extreme weapons lube" products).  I also contacted them.  They provided extensive documentation.  They spent a lot of time with me on the phone.  I had used their choke tube cleaner for years.

I ordered some of their products.  EWL in a light weight and their EWL grease.  I have been using both extensively and exclusively at this point in time.  In my Beretta 686 O/U shotgun I used to use STOS grease.  I now use Slip 2000 grease.  The Slip 2000 product works even nicer than the STOS.

Big thumbs up for Slip 2000 folks and their products.

1 comment:

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